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Author Topic: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville  (Read 869 times)

Eichlos

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Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« on: May 24, 2010, 05:33:45 AM »
This was definitely one of the most down pace episode I have heard in a long time.

After the lot of you got done sniping at each other it became an interesting conversation.

david

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2010, 06:00:28 AM »
This was definitely one of the most down pace episode I have heard in a long time.

After the lot of you got done sniping at each other it became an interesting conversation.

That was totally my fault.  I was hung over, tired and crabby.  And boy did it show. 

Yog Sothothery

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2010, 06:32:57 AM »
interesting show, i did enjoy it. 

i'd take the time to correct Luke but i don't feel like it other then to say Modern Family is not getting cancelled i think there is a season 2 coming. my beef if you will was it was on the chopping block after three or four shows and big networks like to get rid of something before it's had time to develop.


i heard talk of trying warhammer fantasy, if its the new box set one i didn't like it at all. for me personally it felt like i was playing a game of arkham horror with out a board more then it felt like i was playing a table top, i do enjoy arkham though.  we had myself plus 4 others and the box set alone at 100 bucks was not enough to support us at all.  i can go into in depth reasons if you'd like but thats it for now.

Eichlos

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2010, 06:42:27 AM »
i heard talk of trying warhammer fantasy, if its the new box set one i didn't like it at all. for me personally it felt like i was playing a game of arkham horror with out a board more then it felt like i was playing a table top, i do enjoy arkham though.  we had myself plus 4 others and the box set alone at 100 bucks was not enough to support us at all.  i can go into in depth reasons if you'd like but thats it for now.
They were talking about the box set version of Warhammer.  I think it being a box set is one of the reasons that it hasn't made a bigger splash.  As much nice content, supplementary material, poster maps, etc., that can be put in a box set, their age is past.  No one wants to pay a large sum of money for am RPG that you can't actually preview before buying it. 

I remember hearing that a new version was coming out and being excited, then I heard about how it was going to be packaged, and then the price, and then I decided to stick with 2nd edition.

paul.

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 12:16:48 PM »
I needs me some Matt.

simianlovedoc

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 03:21:35 PM »
BTW, I have to correct the Red Doktor. Modern Family was renewed for a second season in January of this year. Breathe easier, sir.

I've started watching it and enjoy the hell out of it.

Chris

okeefe

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 05:28:35 PM »
Not one but two Mooninite references?  Well done, sir.

Love the episode title.

Talonas

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 05:52:05 PM »
You know it's quite pathetic on my part that I have to rely on an American podcast to let me know about Gencon oz registration Despite the fact that I LIVE in Brisbane Australia and am on the Gencon OZ email list. Thanks though!

On the subject on GM plot authority....

Whatever game we are playing and regardless of whether I am Gm or player I enjoy being told a story to some degree. If I am a GM I enjoy running very player driven sandbox style games almost exclusively. I love giving them a template to create their own story, and watching them go. BUT I also have very real plots in mind also, for them to follow or not and come back to if they can't think of anything they would rather do.
This way they can have their cake or eat it too, either follow the various pre-determined plot threads I have OR just run off and ignore them completely (I don't mind just letting them go to "waste" because any plot or adventure idea can always be "re-skinned" or even just re-used whole-cloth). The reason I like the players to drive for the most part is so I can sit back and be given a narrative to enjoy. If they want to have narrative control or story control then that is just fine with me. The embarrassing thing is, that the plots and ideas my players come up with are most often better than what I had in mind.

BUT When I am a player I do not mind being "railroaded" a little bit. If I trust my GM (and I wouldn't be playing with  them if I didn't) then I am ok with taking a more passive approach to the narrative. I do not enjoy having authority over ANYTHING that is not my character. This comes from the fact that as a player I am all about the immersion. I want to climb inside the head of someone else and play around, it breaks the believability of the fiction (or the verisimilitude whatever term you want to use) much more than playing a magic user, alien or green-skinned elf, for me to be able to affect the world rather than my character. I have nothing against players having narrative control in my games, but my personal taste when playing, is to have a little as possible myself. I like being told a good story, and as along as I get to make some choices and have fun, than that's all I need.

Great episode overall, one again you guys prove you can make me ponder as well as just crack me the hell up.

Luke

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 07:23:18 PM »
BTW, I have to correct the Red Doktor. Modern Family was renewed for a second season in January of this year. Breathe easier, sir.

I've started watching it and enjoy the hell out of it.

Chris

I had to go an check this for real since I can't trust any TV report from you after the whole "Supenatural is going to get cancelled mid-season" debacle.  ;)

Still, good news.
"Everything I do is the attitude of an award winner because I've won an award.." - Ron Swanson

paul.

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 03:01:52 AM »
BUT When I am a player I do not mind being "railroaded" a little bit. If I trust my GM (and I wouldn't be playing with  them if I didn't) then I am ok with taking a more passive approach to the narrative. I do not enjoy having authority over ANYTHING that is not my character. This comes from the fact that as a player I am all about the immersion. I want to climb inside the head of someone else and play around, it breaks the believability of the fiction (or the verisimilitude whatever term you want to use) much more than playing a magic user, alien or green-skinned elf, for me to be able to affect the world rather than my character. I have nothing against players having narrative control in my games, but my personal taste when playing, is to have a little as possible myself. I like being told a good story, and as along as I get to make some choices and have fun, than that's all I need.

This is a really interesting issue. I can totally understand this, but it's more of a big gray area for me than absolute preferences.

Having a very powerful character can effectively provide more narrative control than many story stick mechanics. Just setting aside magic for now, if you have a lot of influence or money, you end up hand-waving a lot of stuff that would be a serious logistical issue for average people in just about any setting. This is a huge fundamental difference in the type of story that can be told and the type of problems that are interesting.

I think that's why, even as characters gain great power, there remains a trope of the adventuring party on the road. Because this presents a very controlled scope for details and conflict. Even if the intrigue is interesting, it can be less than engaging to hear,
"Okay, you hop in your helicopter and safely arrive at your desired destination."
"Well, in what fashion did I do it?"
"The...normal way?"

Unless there are motherfuckers stealing, sabotaging, or shooting at your chopper (a pretty narrow range), there is basically no conflict available here. Being powerful can turn what would have otherwise been a tense and textured account of chopper acquisition into the equivalent of strolling down a path. Trying to force conflict there is like being accosted by ninjas between the bar and the equipment shop, and then again between the equipment shop and the temple.

This is also why a lot of people, whether intentionally or not, steer away from modern games. Because the logistics of modern life are inflexible. It's no surprise and is acceptably interesting when magic rises to meet magic. The same magic principle applies to sci-fi for the most part.

Anyway, the point is that immersion often hinges on the scope. If the events are suitably intimate, even without much described detail, they feel more real. And, while narrative control might cause interference for some people, I think there are just as many interfering factors in that sense of intimacy. Sometimes, depending on the genre of game and the people with whom you're playing, you may not be able to reach the level of intimacy where it matters whether or not you have a story stick system. To me, this is still fun.

To go deeper, anything magical other than different flavored fireballs is directly authoring the rules of the world. Instead of something massive, I'll go with something pretty traditional: town portal. The point of these is to skip the conflict available between dungeon and town. Sure, you could solve the occasional puzzle with it. The point is, you're effectively saying, "I have this method of getting what I want out of the fiction, and what I want is to skip this area or possibility." I don't care how fancy it is in the imagined mythos, it's a pretty clear method for putting cones and detour signs in the fiction, not simply changing your character. I can't acknowledge a difference in immersion between such a spell and some sort of fate chip spent to keep the party safe en route to the town.

That's not to say that I prefer that sort of blatant narrative control. But it appears frequently even in "traditional" games with some really crappy window dressing. Even with good window dressing, it is what it is.
And when games do include some more blatant narrative control, I, personally, tend to divorce my actions as the player of my character and my actions as narrator. When we played Houses of the Blooded, I found myself preferring to use compels and state facts that were just interesting to me and had nothing to do with my character. I'd control my character as well, but I didn't combine the two efforts more frequently than I combined either of the efforts with or against other players.

A mechanic like Circles in Burning Wheel is, practically, a narrative tool. However, it simply abstracts actual actions that the characters take using distinct abilities and connections they have. The Circles ability assumes that intrigue is interesting, but networking is boring. I generally agree. This is where the gray area is grayest. It's a skill that quantifies things about the character and his actions in the fiction, as well as a way to invent characters. To me, despite the narrative aspect, this mechanic actually affords you the opportunity to ensure immersion by controlling the level of intimacy.

Eichlos

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 05:08:42 AM »
I have nothing against players having narrative control in my games, but my personal taste when playing, is to have a little as possible myself. I like being told a good story, and as along as I get to make some choices and have fun, than that's all I need.
From my experience you aren't alone in this.  I've often tried to get my players to do a little as describe what some NPC relative of theirs is like--something they would know better than I would as they made them up--and they look at me and say, "Why would I describe what their like?  You're the GM."  Which is a little funny in my mind, because they describe the crazy over the top stuff their character does all the time.  It's not "I got a 13, do I hit?  Ok, 19 damage to the orc king."  It's "I swing my sword and leave a big gash down the bicep of his sword-arm."

That's not to say that I prefer that sort of blatant narrative control. But it appears frequently even in "traditional" games with some really crappy window dressing. Even with good window dressing, it is what it is.
And when games do include some more blatant narrative control, I, personally, tend to divorce my actions as the player of my character and my actions as narrator. When we played Houses of the Blooded, I found myself preferring to use compels and state facts that were just interesting to me and had nothing to do with my character. I'd control my character as well, but I didn't combine the two efforts more frequently than I combined either of the efforts with or against other players.

A mechanic like Circles in Burning Wheel is, practically, a narrative tool. However, it simply abstracts actual actions that the characters take using distinct abilities and connections they have. The Circles ability assumes that intrigue is interesting, but networking is boring. I generally agree. This is where the gray area is grayest. It's a skill that quantifies things about the character and his actions in the fiction, as well as a way to invent characters. To me, despite the narrative aspect, this mechanic actually affords you the opportunity to ensure immersion by controlling the level of intimacy.
Setting aside the pedantic asshattery of defining what is "narrative control", you seem to be blurring a dangerous line when comparing Circles and narrative control from Houses

I know that you can accomplish many of the same things with both systems but I think the difference lies in the fact that Circles are an abstraction of social networking and Houses narrative control lets you define almost anything under the right circumstances.  If memory serves, your Circles have a limited aspect, so I couldn't be good with Thieves Guild and roll-up an Arch-wizard without some seriously BS excuse. 
While if I'm playing Houses and I have a high Wisdom I could define anything in the world, regardless of my characters own personal beliefs, goals, abilities, etc.
The first examples is based on what my character could do in game, the second is based almost solely on a meta-mechanic.

okeefe

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 05:56:03 AM »
Love the episode title.

Suggestion for outro music: Have Luke cover "You're So Vain" but change the lyrics to "You're So Trad".  And then keep the copyright voiceover on a separate track so you can update the year easily.

Robert Bohl

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 07:03:05 AM »
Is it just me, or is the sound in this episode highly jacked-up? The stereo effect is very strong, and you can't listen to the episode in one ear. Luke's almost entirely on the right and everyone else I think is on the left. Sometimes someone will pop up momentarily on the other side, but it's usually not even as long as a syllable.

david

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 07:06:05 AM »
That was totally my fault.  I re-upped the mono version yesterday.  Sorry about that.

Mikel

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Re: Episode 089: GMs: The Mayors of Tradville
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2010, 08:29:46 AM »
I actually like the new Warhammer quite a bit.  I ran a campaign in the early 90s with whatever edition that was and loved the game---this one captures the feel of the old Warhammer but adds in some really cool bits.