Episode 92 and sound issues

[Robert Bohl]

Guys,

The version of episode 92 I downloaded had the extreme stereo-ness again.

Pretty good stuff, though I have some quibbles. People don't have to start an improv acting troupe if they like highly-immersive play. They just have to find other people they want to game with. Also, they should play jeep, a Northern European LARP-like way of gaming that's a hell of a lot of fun.

[Yog Sothothery]

i'm interested in hear how burning empires game goes. i have had the game for a few years now but its done nothing but collect dust on my bookshelf.  it's just so big and just so meaty that i'm afraid to touch it. that and i just done have time to sit down and read it all right now.

[Tipsy]

Ok, first-off, personally I do find that narrative control mechanics ala FATE and Burning Wheel (and their granddaddy Adventure!) can be pretty fantastic depending on one's group, game and genre.

Second, I've been a subscriber to the show and big fan since the early days.

That said, I wasn't a big fan of the condescension, rambling and somewhat incoherent put downs of other players, play styles and experiences.

I mean, barring telepathic powers or omniscience, neither Eric or Paul know how other players experienced using narrative mechanics. Nor was there anyone representing that perspective on the podcast. There wasn't even a particular blog post or essay being critiques.

For this listener, the result was a good 20 minutes of straw-man burning and generally slagging people who weren't there to defend themselves or their viewpoints. Honestly, whatever they intended, I found that Eric and Paul came across as bullies.

I know you joke about it as a whole, but with the exception of the Dresden review (which was fantastic, by the way), the podcast really has taken a swerve into the insulting, negative and bitter lately, and I have to say I'm not crazy about it.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I figure this board is here for listener input, right?

[david]

Guys,

The version of episode 92 I downloaded had the extreme stereo-ness again.

We have been plagued with nothing but technology problems these last few weeks.  :-/  Though, that one was me trying to release in joint stereo instead of mono.  Apparently, I fucked it up.  Whoops, sorry about that.

Pretty good stuff, though I have some quibbles. People don't have to start an improv acting troupe if they like highly-immersive play. They just have to find other people they want to game with. Also, they should play jeep, a Northern European LARP-like way of gaming that's a hell of a lot of fun.

Yeah, Paul and Eric were all over the straw man.   I tried to call them out, but didn't do a great job of it.

Ok, first-off, personally I do find that narrative control mechanics ala FATE and Burning Wheel (and their granddaddy Adventure!) can be pretty fantastic depending on one's group, game and genre.

Second, I've been a subscriber to the show and big fan since the early days.

That said, I wasn't a big fan of the condescension, rambling and somewhat incoherent put downs of other players, play styles and experiences.

I mean, barring telepathic powers or omniscience, neither Eric or Paul know how other players experienced using narrative mechanics. Nor was there anyone representing that perspective on the podcast. There wasn't even a particular blog post or essay being critiques.

For this listener, the result was a good 20 minutes of straw-man burning and generally slagging people who weren't there to defend themselves or their viewpoints. Honestly, whatever they intended, I found that Eric and Paul came across as bullies.

I know you joke about it as a whole, but with the exception of the Dresden review (which was fantastic, by the way), the podcast really has taken a swerve into the insulting, negative and bitter lately, and I have to say I'm not crazy about it.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I figure this board is here for listener input, right?

I try and walk a fine line with this particular complaint.  We use a lot of straw men arguments on the show.  Moreso than I'm comfortable with, honestly. 

I don't follow RPG.Net, The Forge or the Story Games forums like the other hosts do.  Personally, I have never once seen the comment that you "can't role-play in 4th ed.".  While I realize that's not exactly what you're talking about, it's representative of a lot of things we talk about. 

As to the general level of snarkiness on the show, I know it's been increasing lately.  I can cite a few reasons for this.  We're reaching our two year mark.  Luke and I (mostly me) have been doing it non-stop for two full years now sans a vacation.  Usually, I work pretty hard to keep myself stress free about this stuff, but lately, the stress has been piling on, mostly because....

Our recording schedule is boned.  Hard.  It seems like every holiday, every non-gaming social event and everything that happens in St. Louis, apparently, happens on a Sunday.  I try and stay an episode ahead to give us some breathing room in terms of the release schedule, but that has been nigh impossible.  Seriously, we've missed almost every other week in our schedule, and having to scramble on days not set aside from that to come out with content, really puts a strain on me, personally.

Again, look at this way:  Mother's Day, Father's Day, my birthday and July 4th are all on Sundays this year.  We likely won't record on any of those days (Luke says he'll be there this weekend, but I expect him to bail later this week).

Usually, when I have to scramble to do that, I get in a bad mood.  The weeks that I'm in that bad mood, we usually record.  Since I'm always on the mics, that usually does come across.

So, I'll try harder?  I guess that's the only takeaway I can leave on the table for this discussion. 

That and Paul and Eric are just dicks.

i'm interested in hear how burning empires game goes. i have had the game for a few years now but its done nothing but collect dust on my bookshelf.  it's just so big and just so meaty that i'm afraid to touch it. that and i just done have time to sit down and read it all right now.

Burning Empires has the distinction of being the one game that has been so completely different than my expectations that midway through I thought we were playing it wrong.

Expect further discussions on Burning Empires.

[WillH]

Burning Empires is not a big game. It's about the same size a a D&D PHB (making it a third the size of D&D) or a White Wolf core book. That makes it an average sized game. The page count is high because it's digest sized instead of 8.5X11.

[david]

Burning Empires is not a big game. It's about the same size a a D&D PHB (making it a third the size of D&D) or a White Wolf core book. That makes it an average sized game. The page count is high because it's digest sized instead of 8.5X11.

The absolute worst part of Burning Empires comes only if you are familiar with the other Burning games.  The subtle changes they make to how established things work means you have to re-read the whole book. 

For example:  BE explicitly states that wises can be rolled for narrative control of one fact in your wise.  That's a huge shift in the nature of wises that I wish I'd known before I finished with my skill list.  This is what would make a bard devastatingly overpowered in a D&D game.

[Tipsy]

Once again, sorry if I came across harshly- I realize this is a labor of love and hey: I'm just one listener. Thanks for your response.

I've always wondered how you manage to keep recording (and gaming for that matter) nearly exclusively on Sundays. I used to run a Sunday game and it was a nightmare of scheduling conflicts and cancellations. Do you try to shelve a few evergreen episodes (fan roundtables, for instance) or occasionally record on other days?

[Luke]

We try to stay ahead, but do a poor job. I'm generally not happy with releasing some of the last-minute filler because it's usually easy to tell it's filler. Adam is insistent about keeping our weekly release schedule, though.

Yeah, the snarkiness quotient has really gone up lately. There are two reasons for that:

1. Fatigue - Like Adam said, we've been doing this a long time now and the fatigue has really set in. Simple stuff, like making sure we're in mono instead of stereo gets overlooked. We get making fun of stuff and we just don't stop.  We probably need a break, honestly. 

On the bright side, I think episode 93 is our most positive and upbeat episode in a while. So the pendulum swings as it ever does.

2. Eric - That man brought the rage!  He says he's got it all out of his system now, though.

Burning Empires blew my expectations away.  Did not see that coming. Expect to hear more.

[Luke]

Guys,

The version of episode 92 I downloaded had the extreme stereo-ness again.

Pretty good stuff, though I have some quibbles. People don't have to start an improv acting troupe if they like highly-immersive play. They just have to find other people they want to game with. Also, they should play jeep, a Northern European LARP-like way of gaming that's a hell of a lot of fun.

Sorry, Robert Bohl, I only buy and play American.

[WarrenLocke]

For this listener, the result was a good 20 minutes of straw-man burning and generally slagging people who weren't there to defend themselves or their viewpoints. Honestly, whatever they intended, I found that Eric and Paul came across as bullies.

This is a fair assessment.

That and Paul and Eric are just dicks.

So is this.

Eric - That man brought the rage!  He says he's got it all out of his system now, though.

Luke, on the other hand, is a tool.

Really, the last couple episodes (discounting the Dresden review which had the benefit of being a topic that kept me very on-task) which I've been in, I've definitely let stress from the rest of my life creep into my general demeanor on the mic.  I am conscious of it and am trying to reign it in, in no way do I want to try and drag the show down into becoming the Dickcast or some other colorful euphemism.  Especially as the relative new guy to both the show and the gaming group, I'd like my contributions to be a lot more positive than negative.

I spent the two weeks or so between recording this episode and having it drop annoyed with myself for how it turned out and half wanting to ask David to scrap it, but there were a few nuggets of interesting discussion at least and ultimately I didn't want to actually self-censor... sometimes, this is just how I come across.

On the bright side, I think episode 93 is our most positive and upbeat episode in a while. So the pendulum swings as it ever does.

Honest to god, I don't have any recollection of what we talked about.  Clearly I was locked in.

[WarrenLocke]

Burning Empires has the distinction of being the one game that has been so completely different than my expectations that midway through I thought we were playing it wrong.

Expect further discussions on Burning Empires.

Either in the form of recaps or in actual episodes, I definitely want to dig into some Burning Empires discussion.  Probably in either case after we get a couple more sessions in to get a feel for all the mechanics several times in play, but so after World Burning, Character Burning and one full Maneuver the game has been awesome. 

The comment everyone seemed to echo was that the Scene Budget was expected to be restrictive, and in play appeared to be completely the opposite - everyone got really focused on their characters' motivations and actions and it led to a really intense session of play.  Once the game truly started we were locked in pretty much from start to finish, and that's an impressive feat with our group.  The upshot being this focus led to a certain feeling of liberation in play - everyone got to really drive for what they wanted.

[david]

Burning Empires has the distinction of being the one game that has been so completely different than my expectations that midway through I thought we were playing it wrong.

Expect further discussions on Burning Empires.

Either in the form of recaps or in actual episodes, I definitely want to dig into some Burning Empires discussion.  Probably in either case after we get a couple more sessions in to get a feel for all the mechanics several times in play, but so after World Burning, Character Burning and one full Maneuver the game has been awesome. 

The comment everyone seemed to echo was that the Scene Budget was expected to be restrictive, and in play appeared to be completely the opposite - everyone got really focused on their characters' motivations and actions and it led to a really intense session of play.  Once the game truly started we were locked in pretty much from start to finish, and that's an impressive feat with our group.  The upshot being this focus led to a certain feeling of liberation in play - everyone got to really drive for what they wanted.

This is why you suck as a podcaster.

I could have stretched that into a full week's worth of conversation.  Ass. 

[WarrenLocke]

This is why you suck as a podcaster.

I could have stretched that into a full week's worth of conversation.  Ass. 

Torpedoes.... away!

[Talonas]

Just finished the episode now. While I agree there was a touch of gamer elitism and "bad wrong fun" expressed in this one (which I wasn't offended by at all just surprised, considering that previously this particular podcast has embodied the polar opposite of this kind of opinion) it was not an excessive amount. In defense of Kevin and Paul, carrying on a one sided debate can be difficult without slipping into the "straw man" fallacy.
If there's no one there to argue counter point, someone can try play devils advocate but that can often come across as eve more fake and condescending than straw man, it's difficult.

Speaking as someone who does crave immersion as a a player above all else. I can assure you that my imagination is quite intense and vivid enough to "put me in the scene" through my characters eyes in the same manner as any engrossing book (or daydream). Is it perfect and consistent? No. Does it last even a majority of an average game session? Hell no.
But does that mean that I will dismiss it as some "unattainable nirvana" or some "retroactive delusion" where every time I think I have experienced it was just exaggerated hindsight? No.

I completely agree that group focus assists immersion greatly, as much as an evocative description form the GM. Immersion is more of a "mood" than anything else. However, I can easily have the rest of the players enjoying completely different aspects of the game. I don't think it's necessary to have an "all immersion group" like the Jeep guys (and I CERTAINLY think that suggesting joining an acting troupe is the worst kind of slippery slope fallacy).
Immersion is something you will either be able to attain or not, a lot of people won't give a crap about it at all and that's totally cool. It's just one of the many, many things to enjoy about this hobby. It just happens to be my main pleasure as a player. I would never try to enforce immersion on anyone, nor would I argue that it is the only way to play, in fact I think I'm quite rare in my favoritism of it.

I have also been quite guilty of using immersion as an argument to ME PERSONALLY not favoring narrative control mechanics as a player (not a GM just a player). To this I can really only state that I am incredibly introspective, I reeeeally know what makes me tick. So when I say that it is (as Paul so excellently described) the "third person" to "first person" difference that breaks it for me, much more than having character abilities (like magic) that can affect the fiction or the world, I assure you I am not making that up, that really does hinder (not break but hinder) the immersion for me.
Make a lot of sense logically? Probably not, but there you go. It is most certainly NOT because I have not given these game types a fairs shake either. I have played several games that utilize narrative control to some degree. I don't avoid these games, in fact my own personal home-brew system uses them also as an option (similar to fate where they are one of the many things you can do with dram/action/fate points etc). When I gm I encourage my players to use them if they wish or not if that is their choice. However when I sit on the player side of the screen (rare as that is) I simply choose not to use them. Long story short I have given them the best chance I can it's not that I'm "not there yet". 

Now I can't speak for everyone who holds these opinions, I fully accept that there are probably a whole lot of folks who just prefer passive play and use immersion as a argument against NC mechanics. There are probably a few people who DO remember being immersed much more than they actually were etc etc. Just wanted to emphasize that some people (like me) are coming at it from a more genuine stance.

[WarrenLocke]

Fair enough, as you say it's problematic having a topic debate when one side isn't really represented.  The only quibble I have is my name is Eric, not Kevin.