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Author Topic: Episode 148: The Tyranny of Choice vs. the Lightsaber of Obi Bud Weiser.  (Read 641 times)

Clyde

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Just claiming the title, because it's funnier than what you were going to call it. Wall of text for the edit:

So I've taken care of my emotional problems so there shouldn't be anymore crying. Expect to get poked if you read further, Luke.

Let's start with a quibble. Luke says Shaun and my definition of a bang differ. They don't. I suck at explaining it and Shaun took basically the tack I've decided on, since this debaucle, for explaining bangs. Which is just explain it by using one. To give Luke a fit, I'll also mention this is a Holmesian bang, not an Edwardsian bang. Heh. No one really makes that distinction, but it's why it's confusing. Edwards coined the term like 10 or 12 years ago in a book I don't think has been updated. The understanding of a bang has changed since then. Some people don't know because they're referencing the book even today. Anyway... Shaun and I... bang... same thing.

So here are the problem's with trying to rewrite confusing jargon with an absolutely clear word.

Let's say I talk with Video Game Designer and talk about giving a player our "rewritten choice."

Us: "I had their cousin fall out of the second story window."
Video Game Designer: "Ummmmmm...."

Video Game Designer is going to write me off as a loon. Choices are made by the designer, and given to the player to choose. They are figured out in the design phase. It could be cookie, or brownie. It could be Templars, or Circle Mages. It could be head or gut. It could be a choice that invalidates the articles primary example of a problem, like PVE or PVP for gear in WOW. Our "rewritten choice" happens in play and does not correspond to the video game designers idea of choice in design, because we are giving infinity. The only infinity in programming is an infinite loop. So our "rewritten choice" does not match a video game designers choice and thus is not choice as written by video game designers.

Next you have to explain how our "rewritten choice" is not a particular kind of choice to the layman trying to understand.

Layman dude(tte): "If I give the player a choice to shoot the guy with their ray beam eyes, or astral bazooka, that's choice, right?"
Us: "Well no. You see, when I say choice, I mean something like, your cousin falling out of the second story window."
Layman Dude(tte): "What!?!"
Us: "It's kinda like a koan, dude. There is no right answer. It's the choice of creativity; beautiful, wondrous, and infinite."
Layman Dude(tte): "What!?! Wait. How about if I give them the choice between using their device to open the door, breaking the device, or opening the door and having the guards appear in four minutes."
Us: "Fuck. No. That's not choice either."
Layman Dude(tte): "What!?! I don't get it. That's clearly a choice by the definition of the word."
Us: "No dude, I'm telling you. A choice is their cousin falls out of a window."
Layman Dude(tte): "Garble, garble, garble." *sinks into the murk*

Now, Layman Dude(tte)'s examples are video game choice, but they aren't our "rewritten choice." Funny thing is substitute bang for choice, it's the same conversation.

The crux of the issue is video game choice is a good way to look at things when you are designing a game. You could say Dogs in the Vineyard is a game that makes you choose what it means to serve God in a real world. Video game choice could never bring this, because video game choice isn't broad enough. It can try to show you, but it can't give you the choice, it's too broad. But thinking about choice is obviously beneficial, but video game choice makes the word choice really confusing. Then if you try to substitute it for bang, it's even more confusing.

I think this is why Shaun is stumping... he's confusing design choice, the choice discussed in the aforementioned article with the special kind of choice that only exists in roleplaying games, or improv. In improv a bang would be called an offer. They would go on to slice things so more and talk about an offer from space, etc. This has it's own bit of problems as a replacement word.

To end this rambling thing, jargon is useful because you can give the word a new definition, like many words in English. This let's you explain what you mean with the new definition. Eventually the word will meld together with this new definition. This isn't as important for video game designers as the end user experiences the art. They are not involved in the crafting and their choices are limited to the choices the designer has given them. With roleplaying games the end user also crafts the experience. This means the end user has to understand what is meant, and while bang isn't great, choice is even worse, and this is before the Illusionist part of my argument.

Night.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 04:44:11 AM by Clyde »

Appollyon

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Good to hear from Tablesaw again.  I've missed that guy.
I have the rabbies!

WarrenLocke

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A lot of stuff.

The only thing that matters.

Let's keep some perspective out there, everyone.
Regulate.

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Clyde

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Did I miss tablesaw?

TMD_Shaun

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Clyde's got most of my position correct, but I would like to clarify a couple of things.

The angle I always come at this sort of discussion from is that of the designer, so, yeah, I'm not really out to help the layman play games better, per se. I'm of the opinion that it's the designer's job to make a game that gives explicit instructions on how to play a game, and, if you follow those instructions, you will get awesome. Or, at least what the designer thinks is awesome. This is the reason that Crane and Sorensen's games appeal to me so much, and why they're the guys I look up to most when I'm working on a game - they just give you instructions. All of the theory stuff is taken care of on the design end. I just have to do what the book says. FreeMarket is probably the best example of that kind of writing that I know of.

With regard to the Problem/Choice thing, and the differences between RPG's and video games, yeah, I recognize that they're different. I don't think I ever made the claim that they were the same thing, although I'm well aware that I haven't been very good at explaining what my thinking on this matter is, and that's only served to confuse the issue. I'll try to make my position here a little clearer. I think that the types of decisions that players can make - problem-solving decisions (Problems) and decisions between options of equal or incomparable values (Choices) - are universal to all games. What makes RPG's unique and awesome is that the permutations of those kinds of decisions are nearly infinite, while in video games (and board games and sports) they are finite because these types of games have limitations that RPG's don't. In that sense, RPG's are more complex than most other kinds of games, but that doesn't mean that the underlying decision-making structures aren't there. They're just intertwined more elegantly.


Clyde

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If that's your stance, Shaun, then why the worry about trying to rename bangs? I don't understand that. My only dislike with what you've been trying to say is there, because I do talk to the layman trying to figure these things out. So if it get's more confusing, I'm going to be spending time doing the detangling. And I'm already doing that badly. Heh.

Furthermore, Dog's in the Vineyards choice about how to be a servant of god in a real world, with guns, and authority, is the choice that one wants to think about in design. Saying you want to think about design and focusing on what, "your cousin comes flying through the second story window," is called is going to be confusing. I'm confused. If it's the first you are really interested in, I think you're going the wrong way of pointing at it.

rmckee78

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That was Tablesaw in the background? I thought it was someone breathing. Like obscene phone call breathing

david

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That was Tablesaw in the background? I thought it was someone breathing. Like obscene phone call breathing

Eric's been teaching Tablesaw how to podcast.

No, we all told Tablesaw that Eric was the worst one to take advice from, but that man is charitable.

dmarlett

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See, I got the impression that tablesaw was Eric all along and that he just now accidentally revealed his secret identity.  Game torpedo-er by day, wood gobbler by night.

david

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See, I got the impression that tablesaw was Eric all along and that he just now accidentally revealed his secret identity.  Game torpedo-er by day, wood gobbler by night.

Man, I can't tell you how hard I laughed at this.

WarrenLocke

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Obviously incorrect though, I will gobble wood any time, any place.
Regulate.

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