169: Fantasy Heartbreak Hotel

[The Great Mr. Chibi]

At one point in this episode, Luke said something to the effect, "Oh, he completed his labor of love. That's cool. Good on him." I took umbrage at that. I know there was is no love in Atlantasia. I know there was never any love, or if there was, it crumbled, hollow and desiccated, long, long ago. Do you know how I can know, beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Realms of Atlantasia has marker maps and a marker logo.

Look, it's very easy to look at a work of obsession and apply the appelation of love, because it's such a powerful-yet-nebulous motivator that it can easily stretch to explain away bizarre or extreme acts of devotion. But true love for a project, for a game or a book or a show or... anything really, means *care* for your craft. It means production value and presentation. It means painful refinement, and an attention to detail to the best of your ability to ensure that, when your love, your child, your product finally is given to the world, it is the best it possibly can be.

Realms of Atlantasia has marker maps and a marker logo.

If John Holland loved his game, truly loved it, he would have done everything for it. Luke, you paid several artists, myself included, to create the finest representations Iron Tyrants could have. You hired James to do the layouts and Keith to design the tyrants. In the end, you had to sacrifice time, and energy, and not the least a bit of money to do it, but at the end you had a game book you could be proud of.

Realms of Atlantasia has marker maps and a marker logo.

And don't give me any of that shit about "Oh, but maybe he didn't have access to anybody" or "Oh, maybe he didn't have the money" or anything like that. We know he has the internet because he has an awful website you can use to download his awful game off of. We know he can at least figure out how to work enough websites to actually get his awful game published and printed on paper. To say that he couldn't is a lie. He didn't. He chose not to look for better.

And here's why Realms of Atlantasia has marker maps and a marker logo.

Because this isn't a game. And it isn't art. I fully agree, successful execution or not, any work of art completed to the best of its artist's ability should be allowed at least a certain amount of respect. But when something is done, not out of excellence or care or love, but just for obsession and *to be done*, we have a word for that.

It's pornography.

It's the sum total of... what was it? 18 years and 544 pages? That certainly speaks to obsession, but there's no love there. He's lusted after this world, after the ideas of these rules, maybe after the idea of living in a world that works by the rules he's created. More rules and more control let him feel more in control of his world. I'm sure he knows how many nails it took to construct certain chairs in Atlantasia. Because he wasn't creating for 18 years. He was masturbating. He didn't hire any other artists because that would violate his control, so he did the best that he could do for himself. That's why Realms of Atlantasia has marker maps and a marker logo. Because marker or key, he was stroking himself for 18 years over this project, and this is the resulting wad.

So he doesn't love Realms of Atlantasia. He lusts it. And that's why it's fair game.

[The Great Mr. Chibi]

PS That guy is from Vulcan that is REDICULOUS what

[david]

CHIBI HAS BEEN ROUSED.

[david]

Here's how I feel about this, in very plus and minus terms:

+
He did something.  Do you know how many people talk about doing stuff and not do it?  I could give you a link to a website that has promised a bunch of games and videos and whatnot that never materialize.  It's mostly my problem with "writers".  A writer is someone who writes, not someone who talks about writing.  

-
If you're going to do something poorly, don't do it.  Seriously, take pride in your work.  (Somewhat hypocritical coming from The Podge Cast, I realize)

+
Good business and marketing always gets an A+ from me.  Did that guy outsell Iron Tyrants in his first week?  Dunno, but from as much negative press as he got, I'd wager it's possible.

-
FFS, marker maps

-
And that fucking website.

+
Finishing a project

-
That is largely a clone of something we already have, that's probably better

-
with a cock-ass attitude.  I mean, come on.

So, I guess the TLDR is:

I feel conflicted about this (obviously).  Not conflicted enough to read the book, though, I don't often read gaming books anyway, so that's not new.

[Joe]

It's pornography.

It's the sum total of... what was it? 18 years and 544 pages? That certainly speaks to obsession, but there's no love there. He's lusted after this world, after the ideas of these rules, maybe after the idea of living in a world that works by the rules he's created. More rules and more control let him feel more in control of his world. I'm sure he knows how many nails it took to construct certain chairs in Atlantasia. Because he wasn't creating for 18 years. He was masturbating. He didn't hire any other artists because that would violate his control, so he did the best that he could do for himself. That's why Realms of Atlantasia has marker maps and a marker logo. Because marker or key, he was stroking himself for 18 years over this project, and this is the resulting wad.

So he doesn't love Realms of Atlantasia. He lusts it. And that's why it's fair game.

This (abbreviated for space) may rate in my top five rants ever. That was awesome!

[Luke]

Wow, nice rant, Chibi.  The fires are stoked.

Here's the thing. Not everyone can afford artists or solid layout or editing or any frills. Is just getting the work out there enough? I think that deserves some accolades, but the product must be judged on it's own merits.

Completing and publishing a product should be applauded. But after that it is fair game. If you couldn't afford all the things mentioned above and the product is a complete mess, then it's a mess. You have to be comfortable at putting a product out that you're happy with. From what I've seen, I Atlantasia's production values would not have met my standard, but that's just a reason I'm not buying it.

Sigh.  I have to agree with Adam on this. Complete mixed feelings. I guess I can sum it up in that while this is a product I won't buy, I'm happy the guy was able to meet his goal of producing his game.

Also, to be fair, 99% of game design is masturbation.

[The Great Mr. Chibi]

Here's the thing. Not everyone can afford artists or solid layout or editing or any frills. Is just getting the work out there enough? I think that deserves some accolades, but the product must be judged on it's own merits.

Luke, this project is old enough to vote, smoke cigarettes and go to college. It's hard to afford things in the short term, especially expensive things like, well, a production budget. But surely, somewhere around year ten, he might have noticed the single most important project in his life was starting to take up a fair bit of his time, and thought that warranted a little investment into a savings account for the future?

Or maybe he was having too much fun writing RPG fanfiction to his own universe to notice!

[Joe]

Here's the thing. Not everyone can afford artists or solid layout or editing or any frills. Is just getting the work out there enough? I think that deserves some accolades, but the product must be judged on it's own merits.

Luke, this project is old enough to vote, smoke cigarettes and go to college. It's hard to afford things in the short term, especially expensive things like, well, a production budget. But surely, somewhere around year ten, he might have noticed the single most important project in his life was starting to take up a fair bit of his time, and thought that warranted a little investment into a savings account for the future?

I was struggling with this thought this morning. Having lived paycheck to paycheck (and having lived paycheck+credit card to paycheck+credit card), I know it's possible to not have any spending money, even for "affordable" activities like going to the movies. Should poverty preclude people from creative pursuits? But at the same time, 18 years is a staggeringly long time. If he saved 10 dollars a month, that's still $2,160, enough to pay an amateur cartographer, artist, and cover designer.

[Fowl Sorcerous]

two grand would buy a heck of a lot better then magic markers. and maybe some community college art classes

[david]

Mmm.  I'm conflicted on this, too.

People are terrible at saving money.  Who puts away $10 a month?  Everyone can, how many people do?

On the other hand, quid pro quo.  Surely this guy has some valuable skill in trade.  I ply my skills to trade for things all the time.  It's the other side of business that doesn't cost you any money.  

"Hey dude, I need some art.  You need your lawn mowed for a couple months?"

[exedore6]

I could forgive the low production quality if it did what it said on the tin. The crazy part is it seems the rules claimed aren't even there. Say I'm the person who was excited that I can now model horse neglect in a RPG, rusting armor, and weather influencing combat in detail. Say I wanted my players to have to track their downtime, lest their skills atrophy. (And assume that I'm not aware of the games that already model these things).

It's simply not there. I can't comment on the realism of what is there, I bought the book and made a character (a fighter). From what I can figure, in 7 minute round, I'm more likely to injure myself with my sword than my opponent, which seems odd for a trained warrior. (For me, I could see that)

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, I agree. No love. Over the top marketing to a newspaper that I thought was a joke at first. (Come on, a ultra-realistic rpg from Vulcan? It's just asking for Trek jokes)

[Fowl Sorcerous]

I've driven through Vulcan, the town's primary industry has switched from mining to being a trek joke (their tourist information center features a mockup for the enterprise).

but it strikes me that there is no element of this game that isn't touched by hubris.

[Luke]

Here's the thing. Not everyone can afford artists or solid layout or editing or any frills. Is just getting the work out there enough? I think that deserves some accolades, but the product must be judged on it's own merits.

Luke, this project is old enough to vote, smoke cigarettes and go to college. It's hard to afford things in the short term, especially expensive things like, well, a production budget. But surely, somewhere around year ten, he might have noticed the single most important project in his life was starting to take up a fair bit of his time, and thought that warranted a little investment into a savings account for the future?

Or maybe he was having too much fun writing RPG fanfiction to his own universe to notice!

I agree, it would be better to save and invest in what we love but that's not always easy.  And while he's been "working on it for 18 years" that's likely in short fits and bursts or it would have been done sooner. A coworker has been working on a screenplay for 10 years. He's written about 20 pages in that time because he only works on it for a month at a time before leaving it alone for a year. I'm assuming that's how Atlantasia developed, though it's just a guess.

Alternatively, he could have just been clueless as to production value. We have no idea about this guy.

[rmckee78]

I have no idea what Atlantasia is; I assume it has something to do with a Russian princess escaping to Georgia. I guess I will have to listen to the episode.

[Zzarchov]

The only thing you need to know about Atlantasia is that I will break it with my OWN heartbreaker that is at least twice as self-important as Atlantasia and thrice as pretentious as "The Secret Fire".

There is only one right way to play a fantasy role playing game, and I did it, I fixed everything wrong with everything:
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